Are loot drops (and level up mechanics) are bad for games? Thread

I've never been one to have so called "loot lust", to me, getting the exact same weapon but with a pallet swap and a +2 at the end never really appealed to me. I think games like Perfect Dark and Timesplitters had more weapon varity than games like Borderlands. In Perfect Dark, each gun is distinct, while Borderlands has a technically infinite number of guns, but they all feel the same. However, my opinion on loot mechanics might be going from "not interested" to "dislike".

Me and my friends have been playing Warhammer: Vermintide. A grimdark co-op hack 'n slash game. ...or at least it was. The game has a loot mechanic where, at the end of each map you roll some dice that determines the quality of loot you get. There is a risk-reward system where collecting hidden items give you bonus to your dice rolls. The risk is they reduce max health for the rest of the map, or sit in your healing item slot. Seem fine, right? Play the game, get loot to make you want to try the harder modes for more loot.

The problem is people want to run the easiest level over and over and over again, or use exploits to grind for loot. Another problem is that people almost always want to go for max risk. Even if we're limping along, barely surviving on Nightmare mode, they want to carry all the hidden items to get the best roll, but we never get to roll because we keep dying because we have no health and no healing items.

There's a whole games worth of content, but you rarely see it because people want to get a blue +1 sword of healing, and the easiest way to get it is by running the easy levels over and over. If they get the +1 sword of healing, you still can't play the game because now they want the orange +3 sword of dinosaur sneezes or whatever.

A friend told me a similar story about Destiny, where people were grinded a low level cave for hours, and then once they had the best gear, complained that there was nothing to do or that the game was too easy. I'm heard Destiny was very sparse on content, but when you skip what little content there is so you can grind for loot drops, of course there's going to be nothing to do.

Another related issue is level up mechanics. Leveling up is fine, but it seems that once people hit the level cap, they lose interest pretty quickly. For example, people seemed to get bored of Payday 2 once they hit infamy 5. Payday 2 is not a great example, because by then you've probably put a lot of hours into the game to reach infamy 5. But I get the feeling that, once there's no more bars to fill, people seem to lose interest in a game. What's interesting is that games without level up mechanics don't really have this problem. I've put 500 hours into Left 4 Dead 2 and we still play it on occation, and that game has no level up mechanics.

I'm torn on loot and level up mechanics. RPGs, sure, but action games? I really don't know. I like leveling up and unlocking things. Games like Urban Chaos: Riot Responce, Modern Warfare 2, Syndicate, and Rainbow 6 Vegas 2 all had great systems for unlocking new stuff. I looked forward to leveling up to see what cool new gear I'd get, and go back to try out old levels with new gear and tactics. But it seems most people want to find a grinding spot, hit the level cap as fast as they can, and then stop playing. You're not playing the game at that point, just making numbers bigger for the sake of having bigger numbers.

Well, too much into grinding to let up on levelup/loot system. The only concern here is that the levelup/loot system should definitely put some more emphasis on powerful skills/abilities/perks every level, the kind that seem worth getting, and unique infinite loot or at least unique loot, rather than infinite loot, as two issues always arise: boring endgame gameplay and too difficult early/mid-level gameplay scaring people off.

Level and loot system, if done correctly (powerful, limited and unique), can be really a boon for the game. So, are level/loot system bad for games? Nahhhh. Are some level/loot systems badly designed, never intended for endgame play or encouraging beginners? Yeap.

Regarding loot/level system, the two best combos imho:

1. powerful level system (every new level meaningful) + challenges giving you new skills (best if they are obtainable independently from the level system)
2. powerful level system + impossibility of obtaining all/most skills in one playthrough (unique classes, unique skills)

A. unique loot that cannot be crafted, infinite standard loot + crafting system
B. infinite upgradeable standard loot, unique components + crafting system that allows you to make unique loot

If there is no unique loot, or no powerful level system (levels do not make any difference), and crafting system or some other means to support the loot/level system, the game can get pretty boring. Looking at e.g. Shadow of Mordor, Assassin's Creed Syndicate here. Levels meaningful, but all skills available, there are no classes, so one playthrough gets you all the skills and equipment you ever need - there is no real crafting system or different/unique items that can make your walkthrough entirely different every time. The same about challenges - you can basically complete all challenges in SoM/ACS and laugh. This bad, ugly completionist stigma limited quite a few games and made them lack meaningful/unique content.

On the other hand, you can try to complete all optional challenges (damage challenges, etc) for new skills and side quests in one playthrough in Fallout New Vegas... simply impossible, as your character build differs, your side/faction you go along with changes, and all your individual choices may affect what is available to you. You cannot choose your path in ACS/SoM so it is quite pointless to think about or implement the watered down level/loot system found in that kind of games, as it changes nothing, and in the end, there is no actual choice offered whatsoever. That kind of leveling is a joke.

Loot lust is good - but only if unique loot or unique components, and crafting system, are available. Same about the level system cap - but only if there are unique builds or skills that are mutually exclusive, or every skill makes a huge difference. (Unlike Fallout 4: "infinite" levels, you can get everything, but most perks are not even worth getting, and individually they have little impact on gameplay, so you are forced to choose the ones that seem more necessary rather than freely strategise and plan your whole build in advance.)

So yes, if the loot/level system is well-designed, propped up with a crafting system and a unique character path/class, totally thougtful of start-/endgame and replayability, it can really benefit the game in question. If it is not, it may bore faster than games that do not have any of those implemented at all.

and in the end, there is no actual choice offered whatsoever. That kind of leveling is a joke.

Couldn't agree more

Back to topic, I'm not sure why people could get bored after grinding so intense, I mean they have endured boredom by grinding for hours

Anyways, about loot drop vs greed, it can't be helped. If people are willing to play the game over n over to get certain loot, that's good news cause it means the loot is good. But for greedy people, they are simply digging their own grave if they are never happy with what they have

IMO loot drop system is good if:

1. It gives unique items

2. It requires skill to get them (no randomize system)

3. It requires knowledge to craft weapons/armor with them. Eg an ultimate armor requires 5 dragon skull BUT there are only 6 dragons in game and each lives in its own nest far from each other

About level up mechanics, it's tough to balance as the former is indeed change game balance. But it's fun thing to have and solves player's problem i.e difficulty.

and then once they had the best gear, complained that there was nothing to do or that the game was too easy

It can't be helped, as that's the reason for levelling up

However, there are couple things to do against over leveled players:

1. Give halver or quad attack to bosses. Halver is an attack that halves player's HP while quad cuts HP to a quarter

2. Give counterattack which deals same damage as received damage

Those are for RPGs but for action games, you can give bosses defensive abilities such as temporary immunity, doppels, healing shield and agility. In action games, players skills are necessary to win the games

OTOH instead of cancelling level up system, you can give challenge to players such as in order to get best ending, players must defeat certain boss in limited time OR there's an extra dungeon which if completed can unlock alternate good ending

To sum it up, loot and level up are good system if done properly

Some games like Dragon Encounter do it well

Games like The Division is a whole other story though..